[QUOTE=”TomL, post: 79611, member: 233″]
Same old nonsense
The context itself tells you what the meaning is
John 3:3–5 (NASB 2020) — 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot [B]enter[/B] his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot[B] enter the kingdom of God.
Experience – enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context[/B]
The kingdom does not come with observation
Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, [B]The kingdom of God cometh not with observation[/B]:
as noted lexicon support such understanding
[B]5.[/B] [I]see[/I] [I]someth.[/I]=[I]experience[/I] [I]someth.[/I] (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3 BAGD industry standard lexicon
and cites John 3:3 as carrying such a meaning
5. LN 90.79 experience an event or state, the figurative extension of first entry (Jn 3:36
James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).
citing a similar passage
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not [B]see[/B] life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
4. to experience: τ. θάνατον, Lk 2:26, He 11:5; ζωήν, Jo 3:36; τ. διαφθοράν, Ac 2:27. A manual Greek lexicon of the New testament
and greek commentary
He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.
See” (ἰδεῖν aor. act. inf. of ὁράω; a complementary inf. after δύναται) here means “ ‘to experience, encounter, participate in,’ as, e.g., in ‘see death’ (8:51), ‘see life’ (3:36)” (Brown 130
Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 72.
So we have context, scripture from parallel use, scripture contradicting the idea of observation, lexical data and Greek commentary all supporting the idea of experiencing entering into
Sorry that is not the only definition
3708. ὁράω horao, hor-ah´-o; properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by [B]Hebraism, to experience[/B]; passively, to appear: — behold, perceive, see, take heed.
Strongs
You have no evidence at all to offer, nothing new, and nothing which rebuts what I have posted above
Why you persist in this is hard to see.
Your personal ad hominem is deleted
[/QUOTE]
Your gods fail you, TomL, for your god Robertson (of whom you manipulate context) has you preaching “[color=blue]He cannot see the kingdom of God. To participate in it as in Luke 9:27[/color]”, so you self-willed redefine the word [b][color=red]see[/color][/b] (ἰδεῖν ([url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm]Strong’s 3708 – ὁράω (horaó) – to see, perceive, attend to[/url]) into the word [color=blue]participate[/color] based on your self-willed purpose to enable yourself to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in direct disobedience to the Word of God “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3).
Now, you call “[color=blue]nonsense[/color]” this blessed Word of God “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3), and no Christian calls the Word of God “[color=blue]nonsense[/color]”.
“[color=blue]Your personal ad hominem[/color]” attacks against the Word of God are preposterous.
[QUOTE=”TomL, post: 77565, member: 233″]
Utter foolishness. Words must be defined before scripture can be properly interpreted. You simple define words to suit your theology much as cults do
[/QUOTE]
You self-willed redefine the word [b][color=red]see[/color][/b] (ἰδεῖν ([url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm]Strong’s 3708 – ὁράω (horaó) – to see, perceive, attend to[/url]) into the word [color=blue]experience[/color] based on your purpose to enable yourself to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in direct disobedience to the Word of God “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3).
You, TomL, cannot experience King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.
You, TomL, cannot perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.
You, TomL, cannot see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.
Experience is included in the Lord’s words, but not at the exclusion of perceive.
FIRST comes born of God (John 3:3-8).
SECOND comes believing (John 3:9-15).
The order is first comes John 3:3-8 and second comes John 3:9-15.
[QUOTE=”TomL, post: 77565, member: 233″]
example
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not [B]see[/B] life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Does it mean to observe or to experience. Notice have everlasting life is contrary to not seeing life
[/QUOTE]
Lord Jesus was not simply talking about “observe”, in Truth (John 14:6), King Jesus is talking about “perceive” in “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3).
As to the [b]believes[/b] in John the Baptists “[b]He who believes in the Son has eternal life[/b]” (John 3:36), this [b]believes[/b] is controlled by the Word of God who says “[b][color=red]This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent[/color][/b]
([URL=’http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm’]John 6:29[/URL]).
As to the [b]does not obey[/b] in John the Baptists “[b]he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him[/b]” (John 3:36), this [b]does not obey[/b] applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says “[color=blue]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience but that one can perceive the kingdom of God[/color]” (TomL 3:3) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3).
And, again, as to the [b]does not obey[/b] in John the Baptists “[b]he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him[/b]” (John 3:36), this [b]does not obey[/b] applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says “[color=blue]This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent[/color]” (TomL 6:29) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God “[b][color=red]This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent[/color][/b]” ([URL=’http://biblehub.com/john/6-29.htm’]John 6:29[/URL]).
And, more again, as to the [b]does not obey[/b] in John the Baptists “[b]he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him[/b]” (John 3:36), this [b]does not obey[/b] applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says “[color=blue]I judge what is right in order to believe in Jesus on my own initiative[/color]” (the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God “[b][color=red]why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right[/color][/b]” (Luke 12:57).
And, even more again, as to the [b]does not obey[/b] in John the Baptists “[b]he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him[/b]” (John 3:36), this [b]does not obey[/b] applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says “[color=blue]I come Jesus as wrought in my own self-will[/color]” (unrighteous man (2 Peter 2:9-10)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God “[b][color=red]he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God[/color][/b]” (John 3:21).
And, even more again, as to the [b]does not obey[/b] in John the Baptists “[b]he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him[/b]” (John 3:36), this [b]does not obey[/b] applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says “[color=blue]I chose Jesus, so He must give salvation to me[/color]” (the traditions of man (Matthew 15:9)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God “[b][color=red]you did not choose Me, but I chose you[/color][/b]” (John 15:16) and “[b][color=red]I chose you out of the world[/color][/b]” (John 15:19, includes salvation).
[QUOTE=”TomL, post: 77565, member: 233″]
There you go doing exactly what i stated defining words in a matter you see fit rather than taking pains to define them
You do not even examine context for further clues
John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot [B]enter[/B] into the kingdom of God.
Two verse later we see the idea is to enter
You got it backwards
regeneration, the impartation of life follows after faith not before
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Believe then have life
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Believe then have life
John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Come to Christ in faith to have life
John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Unless you believe and come to Christ you can have no life
You reverse the scriptural order
[/QUOTE]
Lord Jesus starts narrowly with the nonborn of God person being unable to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God with “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3).
Nicodemus asked “[b]How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he[/b]” (John 3:4) in response to the Lord’s proclamation. [i]Notice that Nicodemus asked about the work of man which he asserted as [b]enter[/b]ing a second time into his mother’s womb and be born[/i].
The Word of God expands from the narrowly focused [b][color=red]see[/color][/b] (John 3:3) scope into the broader [b][color=red]enter[/color][/b] (John 3:5) scope with the blessed saying “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit[/color][/b]” (John 3:5-8). [i]Notice that Jesus incorporated [b][color=red]enter[/color][/b] (John 3:5) after Nicodemus used [b]enter[/b] (John 3:4); therefore, Jesus uses [b][color=red]see[/color][/b] (John 3:3) to illuminate the nonborn of God person’s inability to [b][color=red]see[/color][/b] King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3), and Jesus uses [b][color=red]enter[/color][/b] (John 3:5) to illuminate the nonborn of God person’s absence of internal strength to [b][color=red]enter[/color][/b] King Jesus Christ’s Kingdom of God[/i].
See, Jesus says “[b][color=red]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit[/color][/b]” (John 3:6); [i]therefore, that which is [b][color=red]born of the flesh[/color][/b] is not [b][color=red]born of the Spirit[/color][/b], so the [b][color=red]flesh[/color][/b] nonborn of God person is unable to [b][color=red]see[/color][/b] King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the nonborn of God person is not born again/born of God[/i].
Your contrived “context” of “[color=blue]Two verse later we see the idea is to enter[/color]” is your heart adulterating John 3:3 into “[color=blue]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God[/color]” (TomL 3:3) which is the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).
[QUOTE=”TomL, post: 77565, member: 233″]
following your method
you preach the words of your gods named Strongs as your heart’s treasure (whether your heart breaks their context or not)
but here is Strongs expanded
1492 οἶδα [eido, oida /i·do/] v. A root word; TDNT 5:116; TDNTA 673; GK 3857; 666 occurrences; AV translates as “know” 282 times, “cannot tell + 3756” eight times, “know how” seven times, “wist” six times, translated miscellaneously 19 times, “see” 314 times, “behold” 16 times, “look” five times, “perceive” five times, “vr see” three times, and “vr know” once. 1 to see. 1A to perceive with the eyes. 1B to perceive by any of the senses. 1C to perceive, notice, discern, discover. 1D to see. 1D1 i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything. 1D2 to pay attention, observe. 1D3 to see about something. 1D31 i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it. 1D4 to inspect, examine. 1D5 to look at, behold. 1E [B]to experience any state or condition.[/B] 1F to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit. 2 to know. 2A to know of anything. 2B to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive. 2B1 of any fact. 2B2 the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning. 2B3 to know how, to be skilled in. 2C to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12). Additional Information: For synonyms see entries 1097, ginosko; 1987, epistamai; and 4920, suniemi.See entry 5825 for comparison of synonyms.
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).
You are completely arbitrary in your approach. It is fine for you to employ a narrow lexical gloss but to use any other lexicon is worshiping them as God’s
That is an extremely disingenuous methodology
[/QUOTE]
Strong’s is a numbering system to reference particular Greek words, so your “[color=blue]you preach the words of your gods named Strongs[/color]” is folly.
The concept of “see” and “perceive” is the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν ([url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm]Strong’s 3708 – ὁράω (horaó) – to see, perceive, attend to[/url]).
[QUOTE=”TomL, post: 77565, member: 233″]
Sorry context and the weight of all the lexical data refutes your claim
Sorry but you beg the question assuming your limited strongs meaning is correct and all other Lexicons wrong
even then – this is strongs from biblehub
ἰδεῖν ([URL=’https://biblehub.com/greek/idein_3708.htm’%5Didein%5B/URL%5D)
Verb – Aorist Infinitive Active
[URL=’https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm’%5DStrong’s Greek 3708:[/URL] Properly, to stare at, i.e. to discern clearly; by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, [B]to experience;[/B] passively, to appear.
You selectively apply the data. Assuming what you desire and ignoring everything contrary to it
And in ignorance you fail to realize it is context which determines the meaning and context does not support you
John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[/QUOTE]
You persist in your folly outlined here:
[LIST=1]
[*]you preach the words of your gods named “[color=blue]Arndt, Bauer, Danker, Gingrich, Brannan, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Robertson[/color]”, and “[color=blue]Calvin[/color]” as your heart’s treasure (whether your heart breaks their context or not).
[*]your heart’s “[color=blue]As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed[/color]” is you adulterating the Word of God from the wonderful “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (the Word of God, John 3:3) into your abomination as based on the word of your Lord Arndt “[color=blue]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience the kingdom of God[/color]” (the word of TomL per his A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, William Arndt et al., page 221).
[*]your heart’s “[color=blue]As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed[/color]” is you breaking the context of the consecutive sequence of “see/perceive/believe” as evidenced in the specific mention of John 3:3-8 preceding John 3:9-15 in that which God caused me to write of “In John 3:3-8, the Word of God declares that God must first cause a person to be born of God in order for a person to see/perceive/believe King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, and the Word of God immediately proceeds in John 3:9-15 to declare the resultant effect for the born of God person which is to believe in Christ”; moreover, Lord Jesus had me continue “The implication of this for John 3:16 is that God causes the born of God person to believe in Christ” illuminating that [b][color=red]born again[/color][/b] and [b][color=red]believe[/color][/b] are distinct yet related.
[*]The Greek word ἰδεῖν ([url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm]Strong’s 3708 – ὁράω (horaó) – to see, perceive, attend to[/url]) accurately translates to see/perceive just as God had me write regarding “[b][color=red]Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God[/color][/b]” (John 3:3); in contrast, your prophecy of “[color=blue]It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience[/color]” for the Greek word ἰδεῖν ([url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm]Strong’s 3708 – ὁράω (horaó) – to see, perceive, attend to[/url]) is absent from the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν concept, so your prophecy (1 John 4:1) excluding “perceive” in John 3:3 is your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) [b]own interpretation[/b] a.k.a. false prophecy.
[/LIST]
In closing point #4, above, we see/perceive that your closing paragraph “[color=blue]Only by mistranslating and changing the meaning of words can you hold to your doctrine[/color]” is false that you wrote against the writing that God caused me to compose.
In fact, your mistranslation of “[color=blue]experience[/color]” for the Greek word ἰδεῖν ([url=https://biblehub.com/greek/3708.htm]Strong’s 3708 – ὁράω (horaó) – to see, perceive, attend to[/url]) means that your “[color=blue]Only by mistranslating and changing the meaning of words can you hold to your doctrine[/color]” [i]applies to you[/i].
The hearts of Free-willian Philosophers bludgeon the Word of God recorded in John 3:16 by wickedly isolating this Word of God from his larger contiguous discourse in John 3:3-21 which not only initiates with God’s control over the salvation of man but it also culminates with God’s control over the salvation and sanctification of man with “[b][color=red]he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God[/color][/b]” (John 3:21).
Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE BELIEF THAT SAVES!!!
Posted to: https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/